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SMS & MMS Technical Forum » NowSMS Support - SMS Issues (Product Support Only) » Archive through July 14, 2004 » Is there anyway to figure out the provider associated with a phone number? « Previous || Next »
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Navid Safabakhsh
New member
Username: Navidash

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 08:21 pm:   

I want to know if it's possible to somehow know which provider our users have.

thanks
navid
Igal
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 08:24 pm:   

*611
Bryce Norwood - NowSMS Support
Board Administrator
Username: Bryce

Post Number: 2706
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 05:39 pm:   

Hi Navid,

There is not a general way to do this today. (Some day in the future, we will hopefully see this facilitated by DNS lookups under the e164.arpa domain, but the cooperative administration for getting that service implemented makes me question whether it will ever come to pass.)

I have seen some companies that provide an "HLR service" to facilitate this information, but the general services that I have seen only work in batch mode ... and they do charge you for each lookup.

HLR refers to the "Home Location Register", and it is an attribute that can be queried over an SS7 network, which is generally only avaiable to operators and service providers that are closely aligned with an operator network.

-bn
Lars Nielsen, MobileNation ApS - Denmark
New member
Username: Larsmservice

Post Number: 45
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 08:35 pm:   

Well... Your name does not sound as if you are from Denmark. If you were from Denmark i could give you access to that.

;)Lars
Alberto Lopez
New member
Username: Osssua

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 02:59 pm:   

Then, from an aggregator standpoint, which one is the most appropiate scheme? I mean, for using the free e-mail gateway you need a HLR service to know the provider (at least once, you may want to keep a database for your clients). On the other hand I don't know if you, as an aggregator, can use the e-mail gateways because I assume the providers do not give any guarantees (number of messages, etc.).

Or maybe I am totally wrong and aggregators always pick only one carrier that provides connectivity for all the rest of carriers. But, isn't that more expensive?

al
Bryce Norwood - NowSMS Support
Board Administrator
Username: Bryce

Post Number: 2737
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:08 pm:   

Al,

There's no easy answer. As an aggregator, you're usually dealing with multiple providers, and one or more of your providers might offer this capability (or they may see this as competitive information and want to do this for your as part of their service).

Since you're talking about using free e-mail gateways for SMS ... that is pretty much a US specific thing. In the US, there are tables that tell you what operator has been assigned which prefixes in which area codes (e.g., the "xxx-yyy" of "xxx-yyy-zzzz"). And you could make some determinations based upon this information. But the introduction of number portability means that this solution is no longer perfect.

If you are curious about the US tables, you can download them from the following URL:

http://www.nanpa.com/reports/reports_cocodes_assign.html

You might also find some useful links regarding number portability, but I'm not sure that you can get access to number portability without joining as a carrier.

-bn
Bryce Norwood - NowSMS Support
Board Administrator
Username: Bryce

Post Number: 2738
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:08 pm:   

Lars,

So how does it work in Denmark?

-bn
Lars Nielsen, MobileNation ApS - Denmark
New member
Username: Larsmservice

Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 08:30 pm:   

All the providers in Denmark has created a company together where they share numbers, etc. This was mcreated mainly because we have number portability i Denmark. Which means that a user can take his/hers number to another phonecompany.
When we started to go into developing wml/xhtml sites, we contacted this company to hear if a service was possible to see what provider a number came from. We wanted to use this when charging through a wap session. The telecompanies all said "ok", so that we today can request the provider based on the phonenumber.
Now getting the phonenumber is a whole other thing. We can get that in a wap session, but it took us lots of work, and we had to develop services towards each provider to get this running.
With these two services we are now able to:
1. Get the phonenumber in a wap sesion
2. Get the provider/telecompany based on the number

This is the best thing that has ever happend for developing wml/xhtml sites ever ;-)
Now we can actually charge without sending any sms or wappush. We get the number and provider. Then we do a charge request. The telecompany answers back with an "ok" or "error". If "ok" then we redirect the user to the content.

See this is exactly where i would like to use nowsms, but cannot due to some missing services in nowsms.
One is the WML template, and the other is to generate a multimedia wappush without sending out the wappush itself but instead nowsms answers back on my web-request with an url to the multimedia wappush.

;)Lars
Lars Nielsen, MobileNation ApS - Denmark
New member
Username: Larsmservice

Post Number: 50
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 08:31 pm:   

Bryce...
Am i being too demanding ?
Do you think my ideas are ok or ... ?

;-)Lars
Anonymous
 
Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 01:05 pm:   

Hi Lars,
What you are saying is quite interesting. Could you elaborate more on how do u get the phone number in a wap session? Do u need access to the WAP gateway, and do like IP.>phone number conversion? If u know the WAP gateway IP, can't u deduce the operator with a simple Gateway/Operator database or is such a database bi and agile (I don't think so).
Lars Nielsen, MobileNation ApS - Denmark
New member
Username: Larsmservice

Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 08:19 pm:   

Hi there.
Read what i wrote above here, then you see how it works. And yes i do start out looking at the ip of the gateway the phone is on.

It is only possible here in Denmark, because we convinced the phonecompanies that this was nescessary if we were to make wap portals interesting. And believe me... The phonecompanies are very interesting in wap portals. I my country they are investing millions in it. It has become the best place to sell content.

;)Lars
Bryce Norwood - NowSMS Support
Board Administrator
Username: Bryce

Post Number: 2781
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 02:10 pm:   

Lars,

That is cool. Getting the phone number associated with a WAP session is not something that I've seen as being generally possible in other countries. (You might be able to work out an arrangement with one operator, but getting them all is next to impossible.)

I also haven't seen easy access to number portability information. Are you paying for these provider lookups? And are you querying the company that manages the number portability for Denmark? Can you share any information about how the query is performed for mapping a phone number to a provider in Denmark? Do you have to query each provider to see if the number belongs to them, or do you query a central repository?

You're not too demanding ... I'm just slow responding because I moved houses for the first time in over 10 years. And, we're at least 3 to 4 times busier here than at this time last year.

-bn
Lars Nielsen, MobileNation ApS - Denmark
New member
Username: Larsmservice

Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 07:43 pm:   

Yes we are paying for the information. But that's nescesarry to keep this common company running i guess.
When getting the phonenumber via wapsession, we look at the IP, and then requests the phonecompany.
They return two answers. One is the phonenumber, and the other is a boolean.
1 means that the number is ok for charging.
0 means that there is no charging possible on that number.
Basically we dont use the operator-request in wapsessions, since we allready have it through the IP. But we do it anyway, just to be sure.
Regarding that service, we request the common company that the operators have made. We send the number and get an operatorname back as an answer.

As simple as that, and now you dont need any sms or wappush for charging. You can do it in a wap browser...

Believe me... Wap portals are gonna fly high here in Europe.
We have our hands filled with work creating wap-sites. We build them in 3 versions. wml, xHTML and HTML, so that the sites are allways beautifull in all kind of phones and handhelds.
The operators/phonecampanies are investing in them big time. They see the possibilities in the fact that you dont need a computer to buy content or access to services like news, dating, etc.
And i know how much they make per day selling content, and it's good business for them.
Every time they sell a phone, there are bookmarks right up to their wap site.

enough of that. I know that Denmark is one of the leading countries when it comes to stuff like this. I just think that too few countries knows about that ;-)


Best
;)Lars
Bryce Norwood - NowSMS Support
Board Administrator
Username: Bryce

Post Number: 2825
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 06:47 pm:   


quote:

Believe me... Wap portals are gonna fly high here in Europe.




What's interesting is that this is 2004, not 2000.

In 2000, there were hundreds of companies saying this, and concentrating in this area ... and then they all went bust. (Or at least most of them did.)

Basically, I think they were just too early in the market ...

But I agree it is an attractive market now.

-bn
ashot shahbazian
New member
Username: Animatele

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 10:57 pm:   

Determining prefixes used by European (mobile)operators is easy. Just go to thexchange.ru there's a directory for every country. It specifies prefixes used by every mobile carrier in the world. Then, if you run a Google search, i.e., "+44 7782" you'll find some British VOIP provider, which would have the prefix listed as "Hutchison 3G."

Some countries have U.S.-style numbering plans where "mobile" prefixes aren't necessarily unique to mobile numbers -- most prefixes are shared among mobile, landline, pager and other types of numbers. Russia, for example has "mixed" numbering - a mobile could either have a "federal" of "DEF" number (European style,) or a local one, which looks like and is dialed as a landline number with a local geographic area code. Some carriers have rules under which a "local" mobile number can be dialled as a DEF number.
Lars Nielsen, MobileNation ApS - Denmark
New member
Username: Larsmservice

Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 07:28 pm:   

Bryce>>
The phones are much better now for surfing than they were then ;-)

Ashot>> If a country has number-portability, your idea will not hold...

;)Lars
Bryce Norwood - NowSMS Support
Board Administrator
Username: Bryce

Post Number: 2833
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 07:12 pm:   

Lars,

Very true.

Ashot,

As Lars says, number portability is the big problem.

And in the US, you'll find that similar prefix charts exist. The www.nanpa.com link that I referenced above has pointers to the tables. But unfortuantely, that only tells you the provider with which the number was originally registered ... if someone moved their number to another provider with number portability, the charts won't tell you that.

-bn
ashot shahbazian
New member
Username: Animatele

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 08:10 pm:   

I agree with that the NP could be a problem. I think though that the percentage of existing subscribers who have switched the carriers is negligibly small, especially with mobile subscribers. The process is so lengthy and cumbersome that most people would just get a new simcard. Judging by the prefixes is still a good guess (and the only one I know of.)

The main problem with this is that the wireless carriers are not required to publish their subscribers' numbers (thank God!) and anyone not having very good access to a telco switch where the call is terminated can only make educated guesses.

It doesn't seem that easy with NANPA. For example, take 917 code used by a dozen mobile and pager operators in NY area. I couldn't find how it's broken down between Verizon, ATTWS, Sprint, T-Mobile, NexTel, pager outfits etc.
ashot shahbazian
New member
Username: Animatele

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 08:22 pm:   

Bryce

My mistake, NANPA does have that info published.

What Lars has done is amazing. I'm thinking of talking to carriers here about that :-)

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